No Cheers for Cheerleading

I’m tired of cheerleaders. If I’m right, most sports fans are tired of them too.Because of my love for sports, I attend a lot of high school football and basketball games in the valley, as well as some UTPA basketball games when they play Division I teams. At every game, we are punished by usually 20, and sometimes as many as 40 cheerleaders who look ridiculous, chant silly phrases, and get in the way of the action.

I have never understood the “cheerleading culture” in America. How did we get from a man leading the crowd in emotional rhymes at the University of Minnesota in 1898, to the spectacle we are forced to endure today? It was just men shouting “from the stands” until World War II came along, when the women took over for their absent soldiers, eventually donning strange-looking uniforms and standing on the sidelines during the game. Here are my problems with today’s cheerleading culture:

1) The fans are there to see the game, NOT the cheerleaders.

If the cheerleaders want to compete in tumbling and leaping, let them be gymnasts. If they want to compete in dancing, let them be dancers. I don’t think anybody objects to dancing or tumbling exhibitions during timeouts or halftime. But if it wasn’t for basketball or football, no one but the parents would show up to see them wave pom-poms and hop around chanting foolish, infantile poetry.

Last week, at an Economedes High School basketball game, I sat on the front row with my disabled brother, and missed a lot of the action because of the cheerleaders prancing around 2 feet in front of us! Please stay out of my way and let me watch the game!

2) The fans either mock the cheerleaders or lust after the cheerleaders, but rarely chant with the cheerleaders .

Excluding parents of cheerleaders, most fans either laugh at how silly cheerleaders look in those goofy skirts, or gaze, mouth open and drooling, at the cheerleaders legs and backsides in lustful attention. Any time the cries of “de-fense” are started, it’s usually by the boys in the student section, after which the cheerleaders join in. And even when the cheerleaders chant something coherent, they chant it with strange pronunciations: i.e., “Let’s Go, Rowe” = “Let’s Gaaow Raaow”

3) The cheerleaders appear to be in their own little world, more interested in their cheers and appearance than in the game itself .

As I said earlier, have a dance team or a gymnastics team that performs during timeouts, but get off the sidelines and stop acting like fools during the game! You are not the center of attention at a sporting event; the game is the focus!

I know lots of letters will probably pour in, extolling the virtues of cheerleading, but just stop before you write that angry letter and ask yourself what cheerleading actually contributes to any sporting event. In my view, “the emperor has no clothes”, and its time somebody said so. I know Presidents Ronald Reagan and George W Bush were cheerleaders in college, but that still doesn’t mean cheerleading should not go the way of the dinosaur and dodo bird.

My favorite line, and one of the few lines that made sense, in the movie, “Bring it On” came when a character said, “Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded.” Amen.

100 Responses to No Cheers for Cheerleading

  1. andrea says:

    cheerleading is another excuse for dressing like a huchie that shouldnt be allowed. I may just be in jr high but i know myself that the cheer uniform are to short and they distract the players from the game. with there flirty cheers and there “pom-poms” then when everyone is silent and want to here something the cheerleaders start cheering. this year at my brothers b-ball game you couldnt even hear the cheerleaders only between the ball bouncing

  2. rebecca says:

    i think andrea is just jealous cause she tried out and didnt make it. but anyways cheerleading is actually extremely hard..especially when people like you always critize what we do. Football players complain when we don’t cheer and complain when we do. Our skirts are short so we can move around in them and as for flirting with the boys when we cheer thats impossible we’re on the sidelines and they’re on the field. and if you don’t like to watch us during half time or a timeout go get yourself a coke. thankyou.

  3. Rebecca, I am a HUGE sports fan and have seen hundreds of cheerleading routines, and the only time the crowd watches the cheerleaders is if they are throwing free t-shirts or pizzas up into the crowd, or if one of them falls and gets hurt. Other than that, WE ARE FOCUSED ON THE GAME. The cheerleading culture is just sad.

  4. Lupin says:

    I’ve seen a good cheerleading squad lead the crowd in cheers. I think there are very few good cheerleading squads because people usually don’t select girls that are willing to do what is required to be a good cheerleader….which is cheer simple cheers that follow the progression of the game. The cheers are often to complicated, and they usually don’t follow the game at all. I agree with you Albino on the lack of need for most cheerleading squads, but why not push for reform in the selection and training of cheerleading squads instead of insulting them and inspiring them to quit?

  5. Nope. I don’t see any use for the cheerleading culture. Not for me; not for my family.

  6. Lupin says:

    Therefore you decided to insult highschool girls for pretty much doing what they were selected for and taught to do. Hmmm….

  7. They need to hear the truth, and the truth will set them free.

  8. Kristie says:

    i am a cheerleader but have also played basketball my whole life and i watch the game and so does my girls. our school gets upset if for some reason the cheerleaders can not come to the game bc they feel that it gets them pumped and ready for the game and they love to hear alot of noise while their playing. the crowd really gets involved with the cheers and love for us to be there. the whole student body looks foward to our pep ralleys and they kick butt…..i also play soccer, tennis and track and most of our cheerleaders play other sports like that and so were not really worried about what we look like so my personal opinion is CHEERLEADERS KICK ASS!!!! and if you still think cheerleading is stupid then watch a competitive cheerleading video and then tell me what u think….cya
    -kristie (aka captain of the greatest bunch of cheerleaders ever)

  9. Jenna says:

    Why do you even care? If your there to watch the game then watch the game. You dont have to whats the cheerleaders. people like you get on my nerves, we like to cheer so we will cheer. Do u know how put down cheerleaders get when they read and hear stuff like this. It is a sport lets see you left girls above your head chatch them and put them down saftly.lets see you tumble[backflips] ohk so sideline cheerleading isnt that hard. but im a competive cheerleader and we work just as hard as any other football player basketball player or anything. you may not see it but your not doing it. I think you people who are putting stuff like that on a websit should grow up and get a life. Some people like to perform and were ment to perform thats what we like to do so we will do it. I honestly think we have more courage than anyother sports player. Why? cause we get in fornt of 100000 of people and stunt tumble cheer & dance. Cheerleading will never go away so grow up and get used to it. i cant stand people who think they know that cheerleading is useless and stupid and to easy. have you ever tried it i bet you havent. GROW UP AND GET OVER IT!!

  10. Jenna says:

    My favorite line, and one of the few lines that made sense, in the movie, “Bring it On” came when a character said, “Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded.” Amen.

    You’re a jerk.
    Get a life.

  11. Jenna, I NEVER would have guessed you were a cheerleader before you told me🙂

    Um, I care because cheerleaders GET IN THE WAY of the real action going on in the arena or on the field. People fill up the venues to see the game, NOT the cheerleading. If you think that the cheerleaders are the center of attention, you are deceived.

    Ok, if you want to perform backflips and other gymnastic activities, BE A GYMNAST. If you want to dance, BE A DANCER. But I don’t get why you think being a cheerleader is cool.

    I don’t doubt that you have great courage. I would NEVER want to humiliate myself the way cheerleaders do on a regular basis — “Take it away, take that ball away” — “I say Raiders, you say Champs!” Ugh.

    Please read my article again….slowly….then put down the pom-poms and back away.

  12. Matt S says:

    I thinke Jenna shuld spendt mor tyme in speling clas and les tyme studeing too be a cheerleedr.🙂

  13. Gregg says:

    Matt,
    Thatz heelaries!

  14. Echo_ohcE says:

    Don’t be too hard on Jenna guys, she’s a product of our culture, and is probably too young to really think for herself. She’s probably too young to realize that no one takes any of it seriously. That’s probably because she’s only exposed to the opinions of those who do take it seriously, namely her parents and her cheerleading coach.

    What these girls will maybe one day realize is that their only purpose is sex appeal. In some ways, football is all about admiring the manliness of the young men competing. So in fairness, they put the girls out there to show off their femininity. The players are saying, “Look at what a man I am,” usually to please their fathers and their peers. The cheerleaders are doing the exact same thing, except it’s, “Look at what a woman I am.” That’s why the two go together.

    You don’t see it that way, because you see it as exciting competition during the game, while the cheerleaders are not competing, just being silly women. Well, ok, maybe you have a point there, but what’s really going on is that young adults are trying very hard to prove that they aren’t children anymore, while their parents sit in the stands and say, “That’s my boy” or in the case of cheerleaders, “That’s my daughter.” That’s the whole point of high school sports. Parents are showing off how mature their children are, and how wonderful they are.

    The boys that are competing in the game are no less on display than the cheerleaders are. It’s all about the display.

    Meanwhile, there is an ideal they are all trying to live up to, and they’re all trying to show off to what extent they have met that ideal. For the boys, it’s all about being better than the other boys, being stronger, more athletic, etc. For the girls, it’s all about being prettier, having a better body, etc. They are all trying to earn their parents’ approval, and popularity from their peers. Wouldn’t you know it, the most popular kids in school are the football players and the cheerleaders!

    Before you say that my analysis is the result of not making the football team or something, I’ll have you know that I played football, and I was extremely popular in high school. (I’m not bragging; any Christian knows that I paid a high price for such things.)

    I guess that’s why I don’t take much interest in sports, because I see it as one big ego-fest. I can’t help it. Where I used to see a football game, and harmless good fun, now I see only idolatry and futility.

    I know what the response will be: Echo, you just hate enjoying life don’t you? You just want everyone to sit inside all day and read theology books and be miserable don’t you? You’re like an old man! Anything fun is bad!

    Well, that would be wrong. If I find sports to be inherently idolatrous, that doesn’t mean there is no fun in life, nothing left to enjoy. In fact, if sports were removed from your life, and you had nothing left to allow you to enjoy life and have fun, I guess that makes my point about the idolatry, doesn’t it? If that’s the case, giving up sports would probably be very good for you, to learn to enjoy something else.

    But don’t worry, I don’t expect anyone to agree with me on this. I really don’t. That’s ok. I’m willing to have my “I told you so” moment in heaven. I can wait. We’ll drink a beer together and smoke a cigar, and I’ll tease you about your love for sports and how you didn’t drink beer or smoke cigars in this life. And you’ll say, “You were right Echo, if only I had listened to you.” And I’ll say, “Well, it doesn’t matter now, does it?” To which you’ll say, “You’re right again, Echo.” And I’ll say, “Of course I’m right, I’m glorified. I can’t be wrong anymore.” hahahahaha…

    Echo

  15. RubeRad says:

    I agree — there’s such a big difference between playing a pickup game (or even a casual league game) for recreation, and sitting in the crowds, going nuts and reveling in the emotion of the mob, in response to the performance of a few glamorized specialists — oh wait, was I talking about sports or megachurches?!

    Americans spend too much time watching sports, and too little time doing sports. Maybe if we put down the cheetoes and turned off the TV once in a while, and got out and played more sports ourselves, we wouldn’t be such a nation of lardbutts! (Preaching to myself as well, of course — and I have to note that the first guy to get my butt off the couch (although ages ago when my butt was still skinny) was Albino, who taught me everything I know about basketball (and apparently he’s a lousy teacher))

  16. Matt S says:

    Echo,

    You mean there is no surfing, golf, or poker in heaven, but drinking and smoking? What did I sign up for?🙂

    On a side note, just as you think sports is an ego-fest, me thinks you strutting your “christian liberty” by boldly talking about your propensity to drink and smoke is your own ego getting stroked. Food for thought.

  17. Alex says:

    Echo,
    couldn’t disagree more. I just love competition. I love playing and I love watching. Some watch and listen to debates, others play or watch sports.

    Question:If you were gifted athletically like LT would you still feel this way?

    Rube,
    wait until you see the “mega church” that awaits you in heaven. =)

  18. Alex says:

    Echo, speaking of having a beer, did you have a few too many before you wrote that last post? =)

  19. Echo_ohcE says:

    Matt,

    You do realize of course that you allowed me to provoke you by my comments about beer and cigars, don’t you? I tried to be provocative, and you allowed me to provoke you. Food for thought.

    You’re right – anything can be idolatrous in our hands. Anything. I just think sports lend themselves to that inherently, while things like Christian liberty, since given by God, is not inherently idolatrous. Maybe you’re right, maybe in my hands Christian liberty becomes an idol.

    But here’s something you need to understand. I don’t drink just because I say in my heart that I’m allowed to, therefore I should. If that were the case, I’d do a lot more than drink. Imagine this: I actually enjoy it. I enjoy it, and that’s a good thing. I don’t do it simply and only because I’m allowed to do it – even though I secretly know it’s sinful – I do it because I enjoy it.

    I wonder why you always want to accuse me personally, rather than interact with what I’ve said. Rather than saying, no, you’re wrong, here’s what the Bible says, and here’s how we should interpret it, you say, no, Echo, you’re an evil person, therefore you have no credibility, and therefore I don’t have to listen to you, whether what you say is right or wrong.

    Your argument tactic is like the liberal pundits on news shows on TV. Shout down the other person and discredit them, don’t interact with the ideas.

    Why do you do that?

    E

  20. Echo_ohcE says:

    Matt,

    By the way, I’d just like you to know that when you argue with me in this way, it tempts me to sin by defending me rather than what I think Scripture says. Food for thought.

    E

  21. Echo_ohcE says:

    Alex,

    You did see that part about how I played football and was very popular, and also my admission that this cost me a great deal? I don’t understand your argument that IF I were gifted atheletically, then maybe I’d think differently. You seem to be accusing me of being jealous of people who are good at sports, and then shaping my theology to reflect that, giving me an excuse and justification for my jealousy. I tried to preempt this kind of attack, because I knew you would say it, or at least that someone would.

    Now what does that say, that I predicted that you would argue against me in this way? Well, for one thing, it says that you, like Matt, are more interested in making an argument about who is making the argument, rather than about the argument itself. Rather than consider my ideas about sports, you have considered only me. You are basically saying that I have no right to say what I have said about sports, because I have a hidden agenda, namely to serve my jealousy of atheletes, who I see as better people than me. Apparently, you are quick to take this view, because you probably think that someone who is atheletically gifted is a higher quality individual than people who are not, and therefore should be held up as a great example of what man can be if he puts his mind to it. Oh, if only we could all be like LT, then the eschaton could arrive, for it would be a utopia.

    Furthermore, the only justification for sports you offer is that you love it. You say you love competition and you love sports, both playing and watching.

    Is this really the best reason to justify sports that you can come up with? Since you love it, therefore it must be a good thing? Is that because you don’t know that you, like me, are sinful, and prone to love things that are in fact sinful? Do you believe that you are sinful? Do you believe that it’s possible that you might have idols in your own heart, and sports might be one of them? Do you believe it’s even possible?

    Unless you believe it’s impossible for you to ever be wrong, or to ever love something that’s sinful, then the fact that you love sports is meaningless. Who cares that you love them? Why on earth does that matter to me? Plenty of people love going to strip clubs. Does that make them a good thing somehow? Many love swearing, drugs, pornography, etc. That they love those things doesn’t prove that the things are good, it only proves that those things hold sway over their heart.

    I don’t doubt you do love sports, but I believe that it is possible for you or any Christian to love things that are sinful, idolatrous, etc. Maybe your love of sports is an idol in your heart, but that’s not for me to decide, but for you. I’m saying that sports is inherently idolatrous. Interact with that. It’s none of my business if you love sports.

    Here’s how your argument can be valid.

    1. Anything I love must be good.
    2. I love sports.
    3. Therefore sports are good.

    That is the only way that your argument can be valid logically. I can’t help but think that this is why you say that since you love sports, therefore sports are justified.

    Look, all of this aside, please believe that it is possible for you to love something that is not good. In fact, please believe that it is guaranteed. I love yelling at my windshield when someone cuts me off. I love it. But that’s sinful. Many Christians experience the same thing. We ALL love our sin.

    Please do not believe the lie that if you love something it can’t be bad. That’s a lie. A horrible, vicious, enslaving lie. Believing that kind of lie – again, sports aside – will only cause you to cling more tightly to whatever sins you have in your heart. Whatever sins you struggle with, I guarantee you love them, which is why you struggle with them. If you think that whatever you love is necessarily good, you’ll think your sins are all good too. Don’t think that way. Please. I beg you for your own sake. I’m pleading with you. Once you identify something as sin, resolve to hate it, even if you love it. Don’t allow your love for something to justify that thing. Question the things you love (not the people, the things). Question the condition of your heart, don’t just take it for granted.

    Remember that you are a sinner, and you remain a sinner as long as you are in this life. This is true of not just you but all of us. We all have sin in our hearts, we are all polluted. Don’t think you aren’t, because you are. And like all of us, you love your sin. If you think anything you love is good, then you’ll think your sin is good, and you will cling to it ever more tightly. Please don’t think that way. Please, please don’t. I beg you, for your own sake, NOT mine.

    I don’t care if you agree with me about sports; it really isn’t that important to me, and I’ve already said I don’t expect anyone to agree with me. But please listen to what I’m saying about love. Your love for something does not justify it. You have idols as we all do, and you love them as we all do. As long as you think your love makes something good, you will never be free from the oppression of any of the idols of your heart. Please be willing to let go of things that you love for Christ’s sake, because he has commanded us to be willing in this way. Remember when he said that unless a man hate his brother, sister, mother, wife, children, even his own life, he cannot be Christ’s disciple? This is what he meant. Be willing to give up the things you love, because your love of it doesn’t mean it’s good. It might not be, and you need to be willing to give it up. Don’t cling to this world, cling to Christ.

    And I predict your response will be, “I know, that’s not what I meant.” Ok. You don’t have to admit that I was right about any of this. It’s between you and God. I’m not your judge. It doesn’t matter if you admit that I was right. I don’t care about that. But for your sake, I hope you listen and think about it. Don’t placate my ego, I don’t care. But please listen, even if you never tell anyone else. Please listen, and save yourself from a heap of heartache and sinful bondage.

    E

  22. Matt S says:

    Echo,

    Kinda like when you make a ridiculous blanket statement like “I find all sports to be inherently idolaltrous” and then back it up with garbage like “I will have my I told you so moment in heaven”. I am sure you spent alot of time researching this before you came to these brilliant conclusions. Don’t assume we all struggle with the same things you do. Go have a beer and relax.

  23. danielbalc says:

    Echo, “I guess that’s why I don’t take much interest in sports, because I see it as one big ego-fest.”

    Please allow for this contrary viewpoint. Your distaste for sports isn’t based on it’s “ego-fest” tendencies. If that were the case you wouldn’t like blogs (which you clearly don’t just like but LOVE). I think your distaste for sports is because in true sporting competition there is a definite winner and definite loser and the judge is the rules of the game. I think you prefer the ego-fest of debate because there is no definite winner or loser but rather the thrill (ego-boost) of individual accomplishment when you think you have really made a good point. The judge of debate if your own conscience. You see i think you don’t like sports because you don’t like to lose. I think you do like debate because its impossible to lose. I think you are afraid of being a loser.

    what say you?

  24. RubeRad says:

    Wow! You two get more personal and vindictive when you are challenged about your passion for sports than when you are challenged about your doctrine! Maybe you should take a few months to fast from sports so you can realign your priorities.

  25. danielbalc says:

    No vindictive motivation from me. I simply mean to respectfully disagree with Echo. I don’t feel any need to defend my hobbies to anyone.

  26. Echo_ohcE says:

    Matt,

    Apparently I have no right to my opinion when I disagree with you. That’s fine.

    E

  27. Echo_ohcE says:

    Daniel,

    It doesn’t matter if I worship Satan, that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on whether or not sports are inherently idolatrous. Maybe blogs are inherently idolatrous. That has nothing to do with sports.

    I don’t understand why you think that my distaste for sports is the only reason for my opinion about sports. I hate strawberries, but I realize that many people like them, and God has given them to them for their enjoyment. I don’t call strawberries inherently disgusting, I just know that in my mouth they are disgusting. Everyone else I know loves them, and I can accept that. I find them disgusting, but the blame does not lie with strawberries but my taste buds. Sports is different. I don’t go around saying that whatever I don’t like is evil. And frankly I don’t think anyone does that.

    Now, why not actually interact with what I’ve said. Try to argue that football is good for a young man in high school for example. Or argue that being a cheerleader is a good thing. Argue for that.

    I don’t dislike sports because there are rules and winners and losers, and I’m afraid to be a loser. I stated my reasons for my opinion about sports.

    You seem to think that I think that whatever I do MUST be righteous. Do you think that it would be impossible for me to ever allow for the possibility that blogging might not be a good thing?

    You’re assuming that I think that blogging is good because I do it, and sports are bad because I’m afraid of it. That’s really…

    You’ve really, really offended me here. Your argument is fallacious and rude.

    E

  28. Alex says:

    Sooooo……How about them Padres?

  29. Whether you eat or drink, OR WHATEVER YOU DO, do it all to the glory of God.

  30. Eric Lidell famously said, “I’m fast…and when I run, I feel God’s pleasure.”

    I know all those times I tickled the twine with my rainbow 3-pointers over Alex and Rube’s outstretched arms, God smiled too.

  31. Bruce S. says:

    I have been reading in 1st John lately and find the juxtaposed “don’t hate your brother” and “don’t love the world and the things in the world” most compelling. The hating your brother (brother here meaning those that confess Christ) being equated with going to hell is very hard to stomach. We immediately backpedal saying, “well, I don’t hate her, I just can’t stand her. I can’t stand being around her. I can’t stand what she says, stands for etc. But I don’t hate her.” Of course, hate is just a word. Only God knows what it means and what his line across which “can’t stand” becomes “hate”.

    On the other hand, the “don’t love the world and the things in the world” is not only very hard to stomach, but our backpedaling can get fast and furious. “I know I said I love xxxx, but I don’t really love it, I just find it enjoyable, I spend only 10 hours per week doing it etc.” And as for the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions, “well, I don’t think I really love these things. I appreciate them as good gifts from above etc.”

    I think we need to beg for mercy here and we need to respond with gratitude to the gospel promise that Christ is our righteousness. We need to ask the Spirit to continue to work his sanctification in us hoping that some day we won’t have to backpedal at all.

  32. Ok, good. Now let’s flesh it out in real life, Bruce. How much sports are we “allowed” to watch or play before it becomes “loving the world”? Let’s not live in theory…let’s move into real life here.

  33. Matt S says:

    Echo,

    Why don’t you defend your position on why sports=idolatry instead of making a statement that no one agrees with and then asking us to defend our position. That makes no sense and is bad debate tactics.

    Bruce,

    I think your position is slightly extreme (what a suprise, right). I, for one, would not want to be a Christian if it meant I had to meditate and practice only those things which are Biblical all day every day. Thankfully, I do not believe this is the spirit of what is being said because if it was we would all be in trouble even for writing on these blogs.

  34. If I may make a respectful observation.

    On this and other blogs, Bruce consistently backs up Echo and jumps to his defense on any and every topic. Even when I have stood up for myself and recoiled at being characterized as a “heretic”, Bruce has been silent, not even throwing me a bone for the years and years of ministry and friendship as a brother with his family.

    So now, when Echo came out against sports, equating it with idolotry, I thought, “Wow. Will we finally see Bruce disagree with Echo, and mabye, as a Padre fan, pull him in a little bit in his extremism and possible legalistic excess here? Will Bruce finally agree with Jim and have the courage to disagree with Echo on even one subject?

    Um, apparently not. What we got was a mysterious call to not love the things “of the world” with no practical application to sports.

    I’m disappointed.

  35. Matt S says:

    I don’t think it is the same Bruce you remember.🙂

  36. danielbalc says:

    Matt and Albino,

    Maybe I am taking this the wrong way but I think you guys are slightly overreacting to echo and Bruce.

    First of all I don’t think Echo was blatantly accusing sports fans of idolatry but rather warning of the possibility of such a thing. I tried to counteract that by pointing out that anything can become idolatrous, specifically noting Echo’s participation in blogging. I made it a little personal by including my assumption that he prefers games where no one loses, but that doesn’t mean I disagree with his assessment of sports as ego-boosting and inherently idolatrous.

    Bruce’s statement is an extension of that warning (I think).

    I am not seeing the same attacks you both are seeing. I am seeing warnings.

    but then again I may be reading them wrong and they are seeking a self-justifying ego-inflating “i’m better then you” position. I just don’t see it.

    Haven’t we all experienced the feeling of frustration that our conversation may be more tilted towards sports, politics or current events instead of towards the things of God?

    I know I have.

    Matt, I think you may want to reconsider this statement.
    “I, for one, would not want to be a Christian if it meant I had to meditate and practice only those things which are Biblical all day every day.”

    it sounds like you are saying “I only want to be saved if I have a license to sin”

  37. Matt S says:

    Nope.

    Enjoying the things of this world (sports, blogging, games, entertainment) without sinning or allowing these things to become an idol is entirely possible. If I am being told that doing these things to any extent is causing me to be a “sinful” Christian and not adhering to the Word then I do not want to be a Christian. Nor do I have any desire to lead others into a life with Christ. Thankfully I do not feel this way, for those that do I am sorry.

  38. Gregg says:

    Albino, et.al.
    At the risk opf not supporting you, Albino, I have to agree with Daniel y’all seem to be taking this too far. I think Echo is talking about possiblities and not actualities.

    I do not know why Bruce is saying what he is saying. It does not seem fluvial to the argument, but it does not seem to fit Albino’s conspiracy theory of blind allegance either. This is from an outsider, not used to he cultural norms of this blog!

    Now that I have disagreed, I do agree with your whatever you do do it for the Glory of Christ point. That, my friend, is well said!
    Gregg

  39. Matt S says:

    If you guys really believe this then why the heck would it need to be said. This is not even a thread on sports (unless you consider cheerleading a sport) and obviously we all know that there is danger in EVERY activity if we let it consume us.

    Are we to expect this type of warning in all subsequent threads? Or maybe we can just create a disclaimer and everyone can post it at the top of their new thread. I give it a crack,

    “Warning! ______(insert activity here) if done in excess can become an idol and thus distance you from Christ.”

    Just cut and paste boys!

  40. Bruce S. says:

    I am at work. I’ll get back to this tonight.

  41. I have a tee time for 4 pm today. Echo, pray for me from 4 pm CDT until about 7:30 pm so that I won’t be tempted to bow down before my John Daley driver and commit idolotry. http://jimost.com/gripitandripit.html

    Daniel — Yeah, I think you got this one wrong. I think he was specifically singling out sports.

  42. Matt S says:

    HAHA! By chance did you mistakenly aim for the wrong fairway? Its all in the hips, its all in the hips…🙂

  43. Alex says:

    Echo,

    I had to go back to your original post (a rare benefit of blogging)about the whole Sports, Ego- fest thing to make sure I’m not misunderstanding you . You have clearly spoken about how you view sports. There is no misunderstanding. In your life and in your personal convictions you feel sports was becoming an Idol for you. This I clearly understand.
    You feel called to be a Pastor, I think that’s great but are you going to attempt to regulate on the congregation about them finding enjoyment in sports? Are you going to require them to “stop worshipping the idol of sports?” This is where you lose me. ANYTHING can become an Idol in one’s life. ANYTHING. I think we can agree on that.
    The real question we (Christians) need to ask ourselves is, Has_______become more than enjoyment for me, has it become an idol in my life? That to me is a fair question. It’s fair because we as individuals have to answer to God for our own actions. Only God can judge me is true because He WILL judge each and everyone of us. It would be like my Pastor, who does not find enjoyment in watching tv, standing up on Sunday morning and saying” If you are finding any enjoyment in American Idol you must immediately repent and never watch the show again.”
    What about the apostle Paul? He decided to stay single.This was a personal decision that he made based on the benefits he saw. Did he call sex an idol and demand that they repent?
    1Cor 7:1-9 says:Marriage

    1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
    8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

    I leave you with this, Pastor’s have a higher calling (and more responsibility) than the average christian, maybe God is showing you things in YOUR own life that He wants you to get rid of. To be more effective as a Pastor maybe you need to get rid of some things.This is important to the sheep that God entrusts in your care. Lead by example, not by condemning.

  44. RubeRad says:

    You feel called to be a Pastor, I think that’s great but are you going to attempt to regulate on the congregation about them finding enjoyment in sports? Are you going to require them to “stop worshipping the idol of sports?”

    I’m not called to be a pastor, but I’ll give an answer for Echo. Yes, it is the responsibility of elders (including pastors) to shepherd the flock they have sworn to care for, and who have sworn to submit to their scriptural authority. So it is the duty of elders (and pastors) to appropriately apply church discipline for any and all revealed sin, including worshipping of any idols, including worshipping the idol of sports.

    Before you fly off the handle, note the use of the word “appropriately”. For instance, it is not appropriate to summarily excommunicate somebody for watching a football game on a Sunday afternoon.

    It is appropriate for an elder who is involved in the life of a Christian in his congregation to notice, say, when somebody has spotty church attendance during the NFL season, go discuss and counsel with that person privately whether they are within the rights of their Christian Liberty. Based on that discussion, the elder could make a charitable decision to drop the issue, or to escalate it to one or two additional witnesses, and on up through the ecclesiastical due process, until either the member a) is judged not to be in sin, b) is judged to be in sin and repents, or c) is judged to be in sin, and is excommunicated.

    That’s part of the bargain when you have a church with actual membership. It’s called accountability. It’s good.

  45. Alex says:

    Rube,
    I love your last two lines. Does your “actual membership” come with a badge? =)

    “Well, wearing that badge don’t make you right?” (taken straight from one of my favorite movies) Can anyone guess?

    Anyways, we do not disagree. You have described someone who has made it clear that football has taken presidence over God. “Appropriate” action is neccesary. This is not what Echo is talking about(at least not what he typed out in his sport rant post).

  46. GREAT day for golf, although a little pricey: $10 for nine holes with half a cart.🙂

    Matt, thanks for the constructive criticism, but to really appreciate the depravity of my golf game, you need to watch these two videos as well:

    http://jimost.com/jimstevegolf.html
    http://jimost.com/golfchampions.html

    As terrible as I play, I’ve descovered I can shave about 5 strokes off my parter’s game with some well placed psychological wordplay. That nonsense about “golf is each man against the course” is nonsense. It’s each man against the other, baby: Winner and losers.

  47. Alex says:

    Daniel,
    I love that movie.

  48. Matt S says:

    HAHA! Those videos are beautiful! You know you are in Texas when golfing in blue jeans is standard attire.

    PS I like the Chargers hat, I guess the Cowboys had a bad game that week🙂

  49. Bruce S. says:

    Where did you get the idea that I am a Padre’s fan? I root for whoever is playing them just to be obstinate and to frustrate the idolaters that love them. I root for the Dodgers always just to thwart the irrational Dodger haters. I enjoy the game for the balletic stuff that goes on. Free agency has made rooting for a team a joke.

    As for being disappointed, I would say that you need to ‘get used to disappointment’. (Name that movie – no googling). After years and years of friendship, I can’t believe you have the hudzpah to continually and condescendingly disagree with me on virtually every point of doctrine.🙂

    As for always siding with Echo, that one’s a no brainer. After all we adhere to the same confession, go to the same church, attend the same school, read the same Bible. Should I be insulted that your observation that I jump to Echo’s defense implies that I am not really capable of thinking for myself and that somehow, against all reason, I am attracted to his arguments like flies get attracted to excrement? It’s not really that I am thinking for myself but more that I am in the habit of applying 2 Corinthians 10:5 – “We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.” If that means I am no fun anymore then you’ll just have to adapt.

    With regard to the topic, it isn’t about sports as I have thread-jacked it. It is about scripture and about the juxtaposition of ‘don’t hate your brother – don’t love the world and the things in the world’. These admonitions can’t be separated. The one is just as heinous a crime as the other. You need to see loving the world and the things in the world in exactly the same way you see hating your brother.

    You need to know that I hate the world and the things in the world i.e. the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions. I also hate that my own sanctification is constantly tripped up by these things.

    So, when does “I can’t stand my brother become I hate my brother” and when does “I find 15 hours per week of the culture’s sports great entertainment plus another 10 hours per month of the culture’s poker tournaments edifying plus another 12 hours per week of the culture’s 21st century television programming a good time plus another 10 hours per month of the culture’s best movies a kick become I have an idolatry problem”? God gets to decide according to his own standard in spite of the fact that we swear up and down that we are not idolaters. You may want to counter that the word ‘idolatry’ is too strong of a word. OK. Then how about ‘don’t love the world and the things in the world’. Does legalism make you nervous? Then how about ‘don’t love the world and the things in the world’.

    I’m done for now. Back to watching the UFC.

  50. Gregg says:

    Bruce,
    I know this is not salient to your don’t love the word point, but are in implying that because Albino disagrees with you and Echo that he is reading a different Bible from yours?
    I am just wondering how you explain the difference in theology if you are destroyong arguments against the knowledge of God. Are you saying Albino is “against the knowledge of God?”
    Gregg
    by the way, I do appreciate you point in this posting and thanks for bringing it up.

  51. danielbalc says:

    even though i defended your first comment Bruce I have to point out the logical inconsistencies behind you preaching “don’t hate your brother” and you saying, “I root for whoever is playing them just to be obstinate and to frustrate the idolaters that love them.” wouldn’t intentionally being obstinate be unloving towards your brothers? Or is it justified when you have judged them to be idolaters?

  52. Alex says:

    Bruce, I guess you won’t be needing the huge HD projector or those really nice speakers (both sets) anymore for fear they may become an Idol for you. That’s how much I love you!!! I’ll have a delivery guy pick them up first thing in the morning. =)

  53. Matt S says:

    Bruce,

    Nice point about God being the judge as to who is being an idolater and who is just exhibiting a healthy enjoyment of worldly pleasures. Lets keep it that way.

  54. Bruce S. says:

    implying that because Albino disagrees with you and Echo . . . . etc.

    No. But if he reads The Message then we do read different Bibles. Maybe I should have said that Echo and I read the same Bible the same way – hermeneutics, covenant-eschatology as a lens, non-dispensationally, redemptive historical, history as drama, etc. (Echo, correct me here if I am wrong on these points of hermeneutical agreement). Doctrine is the means by which we can all agree on who God is.

    (The following is pertinent to more than big Al, BTW).

    To the extent that our doctrine is the same is the extent to which we worship the same God. Our doctrine differs so radically and on the most crucial fundamentals that I have to question his knowledge of God. (As he should question mine). After all, big Al already holds this view in principle. For example he would deny that Muslims know God at all – strictly based on what they teach, by what they confess.

    My whole point really was to emphasize that Echo and I are not a cult of two. And I am not an Echo follower. I am trying to take every thought captive etc. as is he.

    Daniel, re

    wouldn’t intentionally being obstinate be unloving towards your brothers?

    The answer is no. I do it because I love you and hope to see you come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Alex, I knew this objection was coming. The big screen had been sitting dark since the Chargers got beat by the Patriots. I thought I should share the blessing (of such a nice idol) so I am now inviting seminarian couples over to watch Planet Earth on Sunday nights. So, no you can’t have it. Monthly movie night soon to follow.

    The music is my attempt to assuage the ringing in my ears that has been going on since the early ’80s and getting louder. My biggest enemy is silence followed close behind by noise. The better the equipment, the easier it is to defeat the ringing, reduce the stress etc. Any heartfelt donations to improve my equipment would be appreciated.

    Matt, anyone can see plainly that you have judged this to be healthy enjoyment of worldly pleasures and what God thinks about it is something you aren’t interested in (or somehow have God’s stamp of approval thus making inscripurated warnings superfluous). As such, you have come out of the closet and plainly stated that Scripture’s warning doesn’t apply to you since you have already judged yourself to be in the clear. I wonder if you would so easily dismiss the warning if it came from your pastor or your elders.

  55. Matt S says:

    Bruce,

    What is “this” referring to? Blogging?

    Of course Scripture’s warning applies to me as it does to you and everyone else who believes what it says is true. That is a ridiculous statement.

    I guess I need someone smarter than me to define for me what “love” means in the verse in question. “Do not love the world or the things in the world.”

    …And as far as judging myself to be in the clear, my conscience governed by the Spirit is my guide. As I write, I do not feel one ounce of guilt when I attend a sporting event or play poker or play golf or watch a movie or watch TV, etc…

    This is not to say I never have because there have been times when I feel that some things are beginning to take precedent over Christ. This is my conscience telling me to re-align my priorities which I am quick to do.

    If I was to receive a warning from my pastor, I guess that would confirm your belief that I have a problem. Using your line of reasoning, because the warning has not come either my pastor is not doing his job or I do not have a problem, right?

  56. Matt S says:

    Before you or others come out of your shorts accusing me of elevating my consience above Scripture….

    When I say my conscience governed by the Spirit is my guide I am referring to topics such as this (what amount of worldly indulgence is ok) in which the Bible does not have a clear answer.

    Obviously if my concience told me it was ok to kill someone I could not justify doing it, neglecting what the Bible says about murder.

  57. Bruce,

    About what I expected. No expression of solidarity as brothers in Christ. No words of fondness for years of friendship and ministry to and with you and your kids, and shared fun and fellowship in your home care group. No nostalgia to hear me play the chromatic scale next to you on my sax during the chorus of “Ah, Lord God”.

    Ugh.

    Here’s a thought: “I might disagree with Jim doctrinally since I became a Reformed Calvinist, but he sure loves Jesus and loves my family, and I look back on our friendship over the years with joy.”

    That’s what I mean by disappointed.

  58. If I have to get used to that, so be it.

  59. Bruce S. says:

    If I thought now was a time for solidarity and hugging and sax riffs and all that, you’d have got it. I thought all we were doing was trying to hash out the truth. Not much else gets me all that excited these days. Turning back the clock would be nice. I suspect Naomi would have stayed in Moab if her sons hadn’t died.

    Matt, your trusting in your conscience is a very intiguing concept. I don’t however consider the command to not love the world and the things in the world at all unclear.

  60. RubeRad says:

    get used to disappointment

    Probably the most quotable movie ever — Princess Bride!

    I should have gotten the Tombstone one too. I’ll be yer huckleberry!

  61. Matt S says:

    My understanding is that this topic of discussion is about sports and how much of it (if any) we can consume before it becomes idolatry.

    Then you, Bruce, brought up a verse about “not loving the world and the things in the world”. I can only assume then that you feel watching\participating in sports at all is in violation of this command or else this would not be the time for the verse to be mentioned. This must also be why you have given up the game of golf, no longer attend sporting events and never watch sports on tv. Either these statements are true, or you also believe that it is not a black\white issue and each individual must decide for himself how he will spend his free time.

    So yes this verse, to me, is unclear.

  62. Gregg says:

    Bruce,
    I want to thank you for showing me the heart of the reformed tradition. As I mentioned on Daniels den, I am new to the tradition and have been excited to learn more about it. You have shown me well. You have shown me that if Albino (or anyone else for that matter) does not align with your doctrine they are apostates. You can dance around the issue, but at the end of the day he is a heretic! 1 John tells you to have nothing to do with false teachers, How are you justifying you sin by continuing to talk with him? The Bible is clear, if cannot have anything to do with him.

    So this is the heart of the reformation huh? Holding doctrine above God, that is the reformers. As you said, “To the extent that our doctrine is the same is the extent to which worship the same God.” Bruce you have placed doctrine above God. Doctrine is the predicate, God is the Noun. YHWH

  63. Gregg says:

    For whatever reason only half my posting showed up so allow me to continue.

    Bruce, based on Albino having different doctrine he has, according to you, a different God. How are you justifying your sin in this? Albino is a heretic, 2 John commands us not to have any dealings with heretics, and therefore you are in violation of Gods law. And we know from 1 John that anyone who continues to habitually live in sin is not a child of God where does that leave you?

    I do not enjoy being this harsh, but I will be damned if I allow you to attack Albino this way. I know Albinos heart for the lost, I know his desire to serve, know, and love God. I have seen the evidence of the fruit in his life. So when you attack Albino, you also attack the Spirit of God too.

    So once again I want to thank you for letting me see the heart produced by Reformed Theology. From my tradition God is big enough for both theologies. Ephesians makes it very clear that Jesus came to break down the dividing walls. I guess you doctrine (or as you put it your god) does not break down walls, he puts them up. So what’s next Bruce?
    I cannot imagine you are a vindictive person. I do not know your spiritual journey, but based on what you are writing your theology is not what Jesus died for. Is this division what you really want to communicate? Do you really want to link that to the blood of Christ?

  64. Bruce S. says:

    Gregg, nice job there. I think you need to connect a few more dots. How you are getting from point A to point Z is not at all clear to me. At least Jenna, whom you ridiculed above, could make a coherent argument that I could follow. Start over.

  65. Bruce S. says:

    Matt, I think it goes more like this: If it is idolatry it seems likely that eventually you will be devoting a large percentage of your waking hours to it. Not the other way round. ‘It’ above is anything, not just sports. It could be taking walks. We are fallen creatures in a fallen world. Idolatry is in our blood. And we are not yet in God’s perfect kingdom.

    I watch sports but my plan for next year is to eschew football on the Lord’s day. That’s why God invented MNF. That may change as I get ever sicker of watching criminals glorying in themselves. But the balletic aspect is fun.

    As for golf, I got bored with it after mastering it. It just doesn’t represent much of a challenge anymore.

  66. RubeRad says:

    Ephesians makes it very clear that Jesus came to break down the dividing walls.

    You’re insane if you think Jesus came to break down the walls that separate correct doctrine from incorrect doctrine.

    Holding doctrine above God, that is the reformers. As you said, “To the extent that our doctrine is the same is the extent to which worship the same God.” Bruce you have placed doctrine above God.

    Doctrine specifies the God that is being worshipped. Do you worship the same God as Mormons, who claim the Bible? JWs? ‘Christian’ scientists? Orthodox Jews? What separates you but your doctrine?

    The statement is absolutely correct, but perhaps you will find it more agreeable in the following form: To the extent that our doctrine is incorrect, we are all worshipping not the true God of the Bible, but a god of our own conception — in other words, an Idol.

  67. Echo_ohcE says:

    Here’s how I feel about sports.

    There’s a Hindu temple down the street from me, and they have these really neat worship services. They have all these priests and priestesses dressed up in these elaborate costumes that take hours to put on. They’re really beautiful. And they have these gorgeous statues, done so elaborately that I imagine they must be priceless. At their worship services, they perform dances and put on little skits to show their myths and to teach moral lessons. I love to go and watch for the beauty of it. They teach such good moral lessons. I can’t wait until I have kids so I can show them these beautiful services and teach them these moral lessons. They’re wonderful. Now, I know what you’re saying, you’re saying, “Wait a minute, you’re talking about a pagan WORSHIP SERVICE! You’re supposed to be a Christian!” Well, sure, I’m a Christian. I don’t go to these worship services in order to WORSHIP their gods and goddesses, I go to experience the spectacle of it all. I go to watch the plays and admire the beautiful costumes to the glory of God. I mean, God made these people and gave them the talents that they have in making these beautiful costumes and putting on these elaborate plays that tell these wonderful tales. I’m going there to appreciate people and what they do. I’m going there to give glory to God for the talents that these people have. I’m not going to worship their gods, I’m there to admire what they do out of worship to their gods. So yes, I’m observing their worship service to their pagan gods (of which they have over 300 million), and I’m even admiring THEM as they worship, but I’m not worshiping their gods with them. I’m worshiping God by admiring the talents he has given to these creative and clever people. And besides, there’s some good solid morality at the root of it.

    And if you’ve got a problem with me going to pagan temples to admire how they worship their gods, then you’ll certainly have a problem with this friend of mine who goes to strip clubs every Friday night, because he says those girls work so hard to perfect their bodies and show them off. It’s really quite beautiful, he says, and he’s delighted to go and pay homage. He gives them their dollars, and he enjoys the female form to the glory of God. Didn’t God create the female form to begin with? Isn’t it therefore beautiful and given by God for us to enjoy? Can’t we take pleasure in the dances they perform and the perfection of their bodies to the glory of God? They work so hard, and it is really a magnificent display of the glory of God if you perceive it rightly.

    This is my view of sports.

    None of you sports lovers will understand a word I’ve said, because you don’t want to understand. You want to continue to enjoy sports with a clear conscience, so your response will be something like, “How dare you, Echo, call me an idolater! You have no right! And you’re totally wrong! We can too enjoy these things to God’s glory! You don’t know what you’re talking about! You’re an idiot, you’re sinful, you think you’re a pastor wanna be but you’re really just a mean legalist, and maybe someday God will grant that you will grow up and be wise like me, but apparently that day has not yet come. All your studying has driven you out of your mind. You should be more like me, Echo. I read my Bible everyday, and I pray about it, and then when I’m done with my devotions, I put the Bible down and go back to the world. I don’t spend all day thinking about it like you. You are just into head knowledge. Give us some practical application, not all this doctrine. We don’t like you Echo. You provoke us. You don’t hold our hands and tell us how wonderful we are, and sing sweet and cheesy 80’s love songs to us about how much God loves us and is up in heaven pining away for us, longing to reach out and touch us, but he can’t, because that would be too forward, and we all know the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. Why don’t you learn to be more syrupy like that Echo? Don’t you know that’s what people want Echo? Why do you think all these megachurches are so successful? They’re not talking about how everything is sinful, like you seem so eager to do. They’re talking about how much God loves us all, and how he just wants to bless us. That’s their focus, and people like that. They want to hear it. And that’s what works to get people in the door. No wonder reformed churches are always so small, because their pastors are probably all like you: small minded, arrogant, putting doctrine higher than the gospel, making what you believe more important than the fact that you believe it, putting love of doctrine over love of your brother, always condemning everyone and never loving anyone. Echo, you’re evil and from the devil, and I have no idea where your arrogance comes from, but I hate you, because you are so arrogant, and say things that you have no right to say.”

    Yep, that’s what you’ll all say, and that’s what you’ll all think. Don’t be predictable like a monkey. Surprise me, and maybe I’ll have a heart attack and die! Try saying, “Well, Echo, I certainly disagree with you, but I think I understand what you’re saying, and I think you might be saying something legitimate. I still disagree with you, but I think I can see why you’d hold that opinion.” Surprise me! Pretend like I’m not out of my mind for a few moments! Admit that I might have a reason for saying what I’m saying!

    But you can’t, can you? You can’t see what I’m saying as legitimate, because you can’t understand what I’m saying. That’s ok. I know why. The Pharisees couldn’t understand what Jesus was saying either. They responded to him in much the same way that you guys keep responding to me, and frankly to Bruce. That’s ok. We know why you respond that way. Keep on hearing and not understanding. Go ahead.

    And now I predict that you are merely infuriated all the more. How dare Echo compare himself to Jesus and us to the Pharisees! Who does he think he is! We are the ones like Jesus, and HE is the Pharisee, that evil legalist! How dare he!

    That’s ok. You can think that way if you want. Go ahead, keep on hearing, but don’t understand. All of you. Go ahead. Don’t let me stop you. Keep on hearing. I won’t force you to understand. It’s ok if you don’t. I don’t expect you to understand.

    And I’ll know you don’t understand, because you won’t interact with my argument. If you understood my argument, you’d construct an equally rational argument against it, and you’d even talk intelligently from Scripture. But you don’t do that because you don’t understand the argument. You can only see a few simple facts:

    1. Echo is speaking.
    2. He says sports are bad.
    3. I like sports.
    4. If I like something it must be good.
    5. Sports are good.
    6. Echo says sports are bad.
    7. Echo is a moron and has no right to say what he’s saying, and must be a sinful Pharisee. How dare he say that something I like is bad!!!

    That’s what all of you guys keep reflecting back to me. Number 2 and number 6 is where you lack any power of intellect whatsoever. You don’t understand WHY I’ve said what I’ve said about sports, and frankly you don’t really even care. All you know, ALL YOU KNOW is that someone has said that something you love is bad. That’s completely all you understand. Your minds are not capable of grasping any more than that, because the reasons for why its “bad” are complex and sophisticated, and you haven’t the will to think that deeply. None of you. You hate to think, because as soon as you start thinking your brain hurts and you get confused. This is so because your brains have atrophied from years and years of disuse. But you had to do this in order to swallow all those monumental errors you’ve swallowed, because, had you thought about them more clearly, you wouldn’t have swallowed them.

    But swallow them you did, and cease to think you also did, and now you are incapable of deep rational thought, and you get very frustrated with anyone who asks you to undertake that exercise. Ask yourself if you actually can think something through. Ask yourself that. Prove to YOURSELF that I’m wrong. Who cares what I think? Prove it to yourself. That’s who you have to convince, not me. I don’t care if you guys turn your brains into complete mush by stuffing it with crap and refusing to ever exercise it. I don’t care. But that’s what you’ve done.

    “My God is big enough for both theologies.” This can easily be translated as: “God is so big and cool that there are no right answers.” or “God is so big that people of all faiths can be loved by him, for there are many ways to heaven.” Or, ” God is so big, there are no right answers.” Or, “God is so big, he embraces both truth and lies. Yay!”

    “My God is big enough for both theologies.” This statement is profoundly ignorant. I cannot find a nicer way to say it, and I don’t think I want to be nicer about it, because all of you guys have demonstrated that the only thing that gets through to you is provocative language. Unless I use provocative language, you won’t even consider what I’ve said. So here’s the real, unadulterated truth about this statement: it is profoundly ignorant. Profoundly ignorant. Such a statement reflects a fanciful romantic notion that what we think about God is a matter of taste, and what we think about God doesn’t really matter all that much. And if we doubt that that’s what you think, then we need only consider the fact that what you have said is patently false, and a lie, and therefore cannot have its source in God but only in Satan. Yes, you are spouting the lies of Satan when you say such ridiculous things. You have swallowed lies like a frog swallows flies. This is precisely another form of the lies of Satan as recorded in the beginning: “Did God REALLY say…?” You’re saying, Echo and Bruce, you guys keep claiming that you know what the Bible says, but you have your opinion and I have mine, and MY GOD, is big enough for both theologies. I obviously have the higher opinion of God, because I conceive of God as being big enough for both of our opinions. “Did God REALLY say what you claim he said? I don’t think so, and the fact that I doubt you proves that I actually know God better than you do.” You’re acting just like Satan in the Garden, and it is his words coming out of your mouth.

    There is one correct theology. One. We are all constantly striving to conform what we think to it, and it is contained in the Scriptures. We strive to conform to it, because we do not perfectly grasp it. But there is only ONE right answer. Maybe we have it, maybe we don’t. But we strive to lay hold of the truths of Scripture, because THEY are sufficient for our knowledge of God, for our theology. There is only ONE THING that Scripture teaches. Scripture alone teaches theology, and we toil and strive to conform ourselves to it.

    Do you really think that multiple opinions are good and acceptable? No, unless we admit that one is in greater conformity to Scripture than the other. If one is in greater conformity to Scripture, then we ought to recognize that. We ought to strive to conform to Scripture, and this striving should never end.

    But you who hate to think and hate to be challenged and hate to change your mind on anything ever are NOT striving. You are not striving, you are not conforming, you are not growing.

    Keep on hearing, and don’t understand.

    And be sure to respond to this with a personal attack, and make sure you tell yourself that I have no idea what I’m talking about and have no right to say it. Make sure you listen to the voice of the dragon in your ear telling you these things, because otherwise you’ll have to listen to me, and you DON’T want to do that, do you? Of course not. So make sure you listen to the dragon screaming in your ear, and make sure to ignore me and attack me personally – you’ll feel better if you do. And then you can comfortably keep on hearing and not understanding.

    After all, your comfort is the most important thing in the world.

    Echo_ohcE

  68. Echo_ohcE says:

    PS I was deliberately provocative, so that it would generate an emotional reaction in you. I’m hoping that you’ll be lying in bed tonight, trying to fall asleep, and all you’ll be thinking about is that mean old Echo, who says such outrageous things. How dare he!

    Of course, if you respond that way, then that just increases the chances that you’ll listen to what I’ve said. You’ll rehearse it in your mind in order to rebut what I’ve said, but you’ll still be thinking about what I’ve said. And since what I’ve said is true, perhaps if you are forced to think about it, forced to confront it, perhaps you might find a little place, a little piece of you that can agree and learn, and maybe there will be a little more light of truth in you.

    So make sure you get good and riled up by what I’ve said, because then you’ll be playing into my hand.

    See, I told you beforehand.

  69. Ok, I think we just won the internet award for most egregious use of thread-jacking.

    I believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead to pay the price for my sins. I have repented of my sins and confessed Him to be my Lord and Savior. I am a Christian, and brother to everyone who has also repented and believed.

    If you are a part of a group or sub-group that does not recognize me as your brother in Christ, you are in gross error. Comprende?

    As brothers, we seem to have an disagreement among ourselves as to whether a Christian can be a sports hobbiest. I said, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God.” Obviously, anything that takes the place of Christ on the throne of our hearts should be cast down as an idol…even excessive theological debate and study. I think we all agree on the principle. We just disagree on how much is too much. For you to quantify that for me would make you a legalist. “Before our master we all stand or fall.”

    Can we at least all agree on the basics here?

  70. Gregg says:

    Bruce,
    You are right. I responded out of emotion and defense for a brother more then I did with the fact. I am sorry and I ask for you forgiveness.

    Let me “start over”

    Here is the argument you are presenting
    Point 1. When asked if Albino is against the knowledge of God you replied by saying that your doctrine is so radically different that you question his knowledge of God. Then you linked his theology it to Muslims. In the same way Albino already believes some people have a false idea of God. It does not take too much reading between the lines to determine what you are saying.

    So lets break it down so far.
    Question) Does Albino know God.
    Answer) I have serious reservations that he does.

    Point 2. to the extend that our doctrine agrees is the extend that we worship the same God. Rube, you example is a little better, but still misses the mark. Lets remove ALL the cults. I agree Rube, JW’s and others do not have the same doctrine and they indeed worship falsely. So lets for simplicity keep the argument to the realm of orthodox theology. So with the removal of all hetroodoxy, the argument is still presented to Albino that he is out of the acceptable boundaries of orthodoxy.

    Question) Is Albino within the realm of orthodoxy
    Answer) He has a vastly different theology and therefore a different god. (simplified- No, he is not)

    Point 3. There is irrefutable evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in Albinos life. He love for the lost, his passion for the body, he desire to know Christ more is clearly seen in his life. Is he perfect? No. Does he struggle with pride? As we all do! But is he growing in the grace and knowledge of our lord Jesus Christ.

    Question) Is Albino a sincere follower of Christ (which apparently you have had the chance to experience first hand too)
    Answer) This is a time for truth discovery not hugs.

    I agree from that point on I responded emotionally and I regret attacking you, however, the point I was making from there on was if you honestly feel he is holding to a vastly, heretical view- which is the logical conclusion from your postings, then the Bible makes it clear what you have to do. To be consistent to continue any other way is a sin.

    Personal Note) As I pointed out on Rubes blog site, I am seeking to learn about the heart of people within the reformed tradition. As a chaplain I have to understand where different faith traditions are coming from. What I have learned by your example is that you would prefer to divide believers, which is something from my Trinitarian tradition is seen as not Christ-like.

    Again, my brother, I am very sorry I attacked you. I apologize to you and to everyone on this blog. I hope to move past this and continue in fellowship with you. I also hope that this posting is clear as to how you are communicating your thoughts to us and how emphatically I disagree with your assessment of Albinos spiritual life.

    Gregg

  71. Bruce S. says:

    Ok, I think we just won the internet award for most egregious use of thread-jacking.

    Ya’ think?

    Can we at least all agree on the basics here?

    I vote for the Westminster Confession of Faith. OK. How about the Nicene Creed.

  72. Bruce S. says:

    I’ve only got a second before I head off to dinner.

    So lets break it down so far.
    Question) Does Albino know God.
    Answer) I have serious reservations that he does.

    I think this is where my failure to communicate the idea has led you astray. It’s not whether anyone knows God it’s what anyone knows about God. In reformed epistemology, there is no knowing God in his essence. It’s like getting a new girl friend – you know, “the one” – at college and you tell your dad you met this girl and he says, Great son, tell me about her a bit. And you say well dad, I wish I could but I don’t really know anything about her. I just know she is the one. All we know about God is what he is like – from his self-revelation. Knowing him in his essence is something that we as creatures can never do, even in heaven.

    As it stands, right now we don’t have the same idea as to what he is like due to not seeing the self-revelation the same way.

    Sorry to type and run but I gotta make like a baby and head out.

    BS

  73. Just brushed up on the Nicene creed — check.

    I memorized the Apostle’s creed as a wee lad in Lutheran parochial school — check.

    Westminister Confession — Um, not so much. This would mean I would have to agree that infants should be baptized before repentance and confession of Jesus Christ as Savior. No can do.

    In summary, unless I embrace the Westminster Confession, I am NOT Bruce’s brother in Christ? Wow. Pretty small body of Christ there.

  74. BTW, I appreciate your spirited defense of my salvation, Gregg. I know and you know that we disagree on quite a few points of doctrine, but you are definitely my brother in Christ — “He that has the Son, has life…”

    I would like to hear from others in the Reformed camp, if they consider Bruce’s position to be at all extreme, or if they also believe that being a part of the body of Christ hinges on acceptance of the Westminster Confession.

  75. Echo_ohcE says:

    Being a brother in Christ doesn’t hinge on the Westminster Confession. I don’t think Bruce was saying that. Our church doesn’t say that.

    By saying that I believe sports to be inherently idolatrous is not to question anyone’s salvation. Again, we all have idols. None of us, NONE of us is free from idolatry. Saying that something is a sin or idolatrous or whatever doesn’t call anyone’s salvation into question. Do we think that we stop sinning when we become Christians? Not at all. So to say that something is sin is not to say that people that participate in that thing can’t be Christians. That’d be stupid. Christians can fall into all kinds of sin, and we all do. That doesn’t change the fact about what is sin and what isn’t. 1 John says that if we say we have no sin, we’re calling God a liar. We’re all sinners. Christians continue to sin. Now we would say that a life characterized by unrepentant sin would push us to judge that such a one is not a believer. 1 John also tells us that.

    But look, the point is, no matter what I say about sports, that doesn’t affect your salvation, nor my opinion of your salvation.

    Now, what you have to believe in order to be considered regenerate in my mind is another matter, and I don’t feel like really getting into that right now. But the fact is, simply saying that something is idolatrous is not a statement about anyone’s salvation. So please don’t take it as such, because that’s not what I’m saying. If I’m not saying it, then don’t get mad that I’ve said it, because I haven’t said it.

    Members of our church do not subscribe to the Westminster Confession of faith. What does that mean? Does that mean we think you have to believe the WCF before you can be pronounced by the church to be a believer, and thus to be allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper with us? No. It precisely does not mean that.

    E

  76. Being a brother in Christ doesn’t hinge on the Westminster Confession

    I vote for the Westminster Confession.

    Dear Diary, We finally have a disagreement between Bruce and Echo.

    Echo — I believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. I have repented of my sins and confessed that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Does that now make me your brother in Christ? What other hoops must I jump through? (i.e. cross-reference Rom. 10:9-10 and Peter’s response to jailer).

  77. Echo_ohcE says:

    Pretty much, Albino. I would like to make sure you can connect his death and resurrection with his being your Savior. What I mean is, I’d want you to affirm that his death and resurrection – to the exclusion of what YOU do – is your salvation. I want you to be able to say that when you die, and if God were to ask you why you should be let into heaven, then I’d like to hear what you would say, and I would hope you wouldn’t say that Jesus died for you, and plus I’ve been a pretty good person. I don’t want to hear anything like that. I want to know that you believe that you can ONLY depend on the death and resurrection of Christ for your salvation, which is of course intimately related to confessing sins, etc.

    My short answer is yes, but for me to really affirm that you are a believer, I’d like to hear perhaps one more sentence that ensures an understanding of how all those elements are necessarily related to one another.

    However, that being said, that only qualifies you to just barely squeeze through the door into heaven. Being able to confess this is what defines Christians from non-Christians, but this by no means makes you a MATURE Christian, much less does such a confession qualify you for the office of minister. It only makes you a newborn infant Christian, not an adult, surely not a leader.

    In other words, if someone made that confession you talked about on their deathbed, I’d praise God that they were going to heaven. No doubt. But if that’s all someone could say when being examined for ordination, there is equally no doubt that that’s not enough.

    I think perhaps Bruce’s concern – and if not, it IS my concern – is that being qualified for admission to heaven does not qualify one for the office of minister, anymore than being born qualifies you to be a Congressman.

    Just because I can call you brother by no means indicates that I should be ok with you being a pastor. (Bearing in mind of course that I am not your judge, but that’s between you and God. Nevertheless, I am concerned, and I’m merely giving voice to that concern. You can of course take it or leave it.)

    And here’s a really big problem. If someone is not qualified to be a pastor, and what they are saying is wrong – and here’s the punchline – the genuineness of their confession can (perhaps should?) be called into question.

    Here’s what I mean. How you live your life flows from your confession. If there’s a disconnect between your confession and your life, your deeds, then your confession, even if worded correctly, is properly to be judged to be false. If there is no love for the people of God in someone at all, then it doesn’t matter how eloquent and articulate the confession of their faith is, it’s patently false and meaningless. 1 John makes that clear. (I keep mentioning 1 John because I’m going to preach on it – my first sermon – next week, so I’m rather steeped in it at the moment. I’ll be happy to provide via email my final manuscript when it’s completed for whoever wants it, so you can rip it apart if you like. I’m not scared. Hehehe.) Anyway, 1 John says if someone doesn’t love his brother, how CAN the love of God dwell in him?

    So here’s the thing. If what someone is preaching is wrong, and therefore they are leading people actually astray, then this does not exhibit love to the brothers. How can it be love for the brothers if you are leading the brothers away from Christ? Surely this makes no sense, right?

    Of course, no sermon is perfect. That would be nuts to assert such a thing. And if there is some hope of the gospel in a sermon, well, then there is SOME measure of love for the brothers in there, isn’t there? And if there is some measure of love at least, then no matter how much hatred and wicked idolatry is mixed in with it, it is still a little bit of love, and this love, as John says, can only come from first knowing the love of God in Christ.

    So then, if there is some measure of love, no matter how small, I think it’s wrong to say that someone is simply a false teacher and therefore not a believer, no matter their confession. If there is no measure of love, no measure of truth, no light of the gospel ever in someone’s preaching – then such a man certainly IS a false teacher and is to be condemned. Seriously. But if there is some small light of the gospel, no matter how small, then such a man is a brother.

    However, again, being a brother does not mean that such a one should necessarily be preaching. Babies shouldn’t govern, after all, nor teach. A baby isn’t qualified to teach high school or whatever.

    But, God can also forgive even this – again, if and only if there is some small measure of the gospel in the man’s sermons.

    Now, it is true that you and I have two completely different notions of what it means to be qualified to preach. We know this, and we aren’t surprised by this. Under your standard, I’m not qualified to preach, and under mine, you aren’t. That’s simple enough. But neither you nor I are the ones who make the standard. God makes the standard. The church should simply abide by that standard.

    Whether or not you are qualified or I am qualified (which I’m not yet anyway even by my standards and that of my church, I’m still studying after all) is actually not a matter of opinion, unless of course you mean God’s opinion. God does not have many and varied opinions, and it isn’t a matter of taste. God has one opinion, and it is laid out in Scripture.

    But here’s the problem. We all interpret Scripture differently. Your standard, your beliefs, are derived from how you interpret the Bible, and my standard, my beliefs, are derived from how I interpret the Bible.

    Now, if you and I interpret the Bible in vastly different ways – except for some common ground of agreement, as you mentioned – then we have vastly different ideas of what it means to be qualified to preach, and vastly different ideas about what should and should not be proclaimed from the pulpit, because obviously a sermon is preaching the Word, and if we interpret it differently, what we think about what should be said will be completely different.

    So there is the nature of the disconnect between you and me, and between you and Bruce. Now, it may be that Bruce finds that in your sermons there is no light of the gospel at all. If that’s the case, then certainly if he doubts the validity of your confession, his doubt is understandable. Because, as I said, if there’s no light of the gospel, there’s no love, and consequently, such a man is not a believer. He can’t be. But again, if there is some light of the gospel, then such a man is a believer. He must be, because conveying the light of the gospel to others is in fact an act of genuine love. No one can discount or disprove this.

    But probably what you want me to admit is that there is some measure of light in your preaching, some measure of love, some measure of the truth of the gospel. To be honest, I haven’t really heard enough of your preaching to say one way or another. I read one of your sermons online, and I had some very serious concerns. My concern was that what you said pointed people to things other than Christ for their hope, which concerns I have voiced to you before. But I haven’t heard all of your sermons, all of your preaching, so I don’t know if you regularly preach the gospel of hoping in Christ alone for salvation to the exclusion of anything we do.

    Now I am not an antinomian, and many have accused me here and elsewhere of being a legalist. But I say that our salvation has nothing at all to do with what we do, and everything to do with what Christ HAS DONE. Our salvation is not our doing but his doing. If this is not the message you are sending – and I’m really not in a position to say that definitively – then your preaching is…well, I’ve said already. But if this is the message you are trying to send faithfully week in and week out – to hope in Christ alone for salvation – then by all means, keep doing it.

    But, what we, I think, try to do is get you to understand the gospel as we understand it, because we are convicted that we understand it rightly, and we are concerned that you do not. As you can see, this is no small concern.

    Unfortunately, the gospel is more than “Jesus died for you”. That’s a good start, but saying that Jesus died for our sins is only half the story. Because, as was the case in many churches I’ve attended, you can believe that Jesus died for your sins, but you might still find that it’s up to you to live out your salvation – in order to ensure admission into heaven.

    Now, by what you’ve said above, you DON’T believe that our works have anything to do with our admission into heaven. And for that I am pleased and grateful, and I praise God for it. What I have seen in what I have read in your writings on blogs and on your own website, is that while in theory you don’t believe our works have anything to do with our salvation – yet I feel like that’s the message you seem to send. Or, perhaps it can be said that what you say is not sufficient to banish all such thoughts from the hearts of those hearing what you say. In other words, maybe you don’t bring this out clearly enough, so that it’s impossible for anyone to get the wrong idea. Were that the case, and I think it just might be, then you wouldn’t be guilty of deliberately deceiving people, but you wouldn’t be doing enough to make sure people aren’t deceived.

    Maybe I’ve got you all wrong. Who knows? But what I am convinced of is that it is the job, the charge, of the minister to preach sermons that convey the idea that our ONLY hope is Christ, and that we can put our hope in NOTHING ELSE. I am convinced that that is the job of the preacher in every sermon. I will not ever change my mind on this, because I have become absolutely convinced of it from the Scriptures. Believe me when I say this, there are many even in my own denomination that screw this up, and there are many outside my denomination that get it right. For the latter I rejoice, but for the former I mourn. I know what it’s like to live without a crystal clear understand of just what it is that Christ’s death and resurrection accomplishes for us, what it earns for us. If we can’t understand that Christ’s work alone earns salvation for us, then we have no choice but to hope in something else, whether it be our own works of obedience or some other thing.

    I am not your judge. Whether you belong in the pulpit is not for me to decide, nor is it for Bruce to decide. It is for God to decide, and it is he you must answer to. And if you are preaching such that no one can walk away being unsure what you said, and if what you said was that you can’t earn your salvation, but Christ earns it for you, then you will be able to stand before God in confidence on the day of judgment. If you don’t do that, then I don’t know what God will say to you. For your own sake, and the sake of your hearers, I would implore you to always make this as clear as possible.

    This, and only this, is at the heart of every single disagreement we have ever had with you. Never once was this concern NOT driving our disagreement. Never once. Whether it be tongues or election or some other issue, the root of the matter is clearly teaching people to hope in Christ alone.

    Now maybe it IS your desire to preach this clearly to people. Maybe it is. Only you and God know that. I think Bruce’s point is that you didn’t teach him that. Maybe you tried to, but ultimately you didn’t. I don’t know. I can’t speak for Bruce. But make no mistake, Bruce clearly does understand that now, and he hears it every week. So maybe you tried to teach him that, maybe you didn’t. I don’t know. You know and God knows. But I think what he’s saying is that what you preach doesn’t teach him that. It doesn’t convey that clearly to him. If that’s the case, then your preaching did him no good at all. And that is to be mourned. But I don’t know, maybe that’s not actually his point.

    But if it IS his point, and this IS the message you are trying to send to people, then at least take this away from this: you could be doing more to ensure that everyone gets the point.

    If that’s not Bruce’s point, then what I’ve said will be of little or no value.

    If that’s not the message you are trying as hard as you can to send to your hearers, then I would tell you based on the authority of the Scriptures, that that had better become the message you are trying to send.

    If that IS what you’re trying to send, consider that perhaps not everyone is getting the point, and redouble your efforts to ensure that they are getting the point, by stating it clearly over and over again.

    I for one think that it is probably the case that that is in fact the message you are trying to send. Perhaps you need to be careful about making sure every single thing you say is consistent with that. But I think if you are sure that this is the message you are trying to send, and you try with all you have to convey it, then I can’t really have any complaint. But just remember that you have to make your message consistent with that, so that no one is given a stumbling block to getting that point. There is no other mission for a sermon than to convey this point from every text of Scripture on which you preach. If you have conveyed that our only hope is Christ, I really don’t care how bad the sermon is or how good, the sermon is a success. If you haven’t conveyed that message, you have failed.

    So here’s my standard: preach the gospel clearly in every sermon, and make sure you show the people that from the passage at hand. Do that and you will be successful. No one can ask anything more of you. Fail to do that, and you’re just wasting everyone’s time.

    But what do you do with passages that are all law and no gospel? There are such passages to be sure. We have to remember that the law always, always, always exposes sin. If we expose sin in our listeners, we must be careful to remind them of the cure in Christ. If we fail to do that, we fail to give them any hope for their sin. God wants us to be assured of our salvation based on the accomplishments of Christ, not based on our lack of sin. We cannot be sure of our salvation if our salvation depends on our lack of sin, because we all sin. Therefore, the only assurance can be in Christ’s finished work, and the job of the preacher is to assure the listener that it’s ok to hope in Christ and not themselves, because this is God’s design. Have you sinned? Don’t be afraid. Your sin doesn’t separate you from the love of God, thanks to the finished work of Christ.

    Preaching this message is how you love your congregation as a pastor. Failing to preach this message is wicked bondage to idols. I’m very serious. It’s very simple, but this is our charge, and it is a very serious one.

    E

  78. A simple “yes” would have sufficed.

  79. Gregg says:

    Echo,
    I love 1st John amd I would very much like to have a manuscript of your sermon. I will being praying for your first. it is always tough! Look forward to hearing how it went.
    Gregg

  80. Echo_ohcE says:

    Hahahaha @ Albino…you know me better than that by now, don’t you? That post did get away from me a little bit.

    Gregg, I thank you sincerely for your prayers. I had to make a manuscript to turn it in, and it’s going to be hard for me to preach without it, also a requirement. I’m worried I’ll be trying to rehearse my manuscript, but without being able to memorize it. Yikes! There’s cause for struggling for words.

    I need to make an outline as soon as possible and practice from that! Thank God for wives who are willing to listen to the same sermon 5 times in as many days!

    E

  81. Bruce S. says:

    I guess I didn’t read the fine print. Now I discover that “agreeing on the basics” really meant the additional idea of “what do I have to confess to to get you to believe that I am your brother in Christ.” My concept was not that at all. To me things like who God is, how we know him, how we know our sin and other basic ideas was what was in view. The “who is my brother in Christ question” never really crosses my mind so it wouldn’t have dawned on me that that is what you were driving at. That’s because that’s really like asking “who are those whom God has granted as the gift to his Son for his obedience.” As such the “who is my brother in Christ” is a creature-centric point of view -which is something I am trying to avoid. This whole entire existence that we find ourselves in is not our program. It is entirely the outworking of the covenant of redemption. It frankly shocks me that God has chosen me to be a gift to his Son for his obedience. Sorry for the confusion.

  82. Echo_ohcE says:

    Hahahahahahahaha…

    Bruce, only you and I will get that. Hahahaha…

  83. Laura says:

    You know, I don’t care for cheerleaders, either, and I agree that they don’t bring anything to the actual game you are watching…I do opine that they provide some eye candy for the guys who are drunk and bored, etc.

    However, I do enjoy watching cheer competitions, that showcase the dance and athletic abilities of these young people, but at least they do this without the pretense of adding something to a game…

    By the way, it’s upsetting to me that a blog entry on a non-theological issue had to bring out a theological discussion/debate/frenzy…can’t some of you guys stay on point for three minutes and just enjoy the rant of the day? Sheesh…

  84. Echo_ohcE says:

    “it’s upsetting to me that a blog entry on a non-theological issue had to bring out a theological discussion/debate/frenzy”

    Of course you realize, this is a theological point you’re making, about how theology should be divorced from everyday life. You are implicitly claiming that theology has no direct bearing on a distaste for cheerleading or whatever.

    In other words, you’re saying that if you dislike cheerleading because it teaches young girls that they should portray themselves as eye candy for men, or as a slab of fresh meat, your dislike has nothing to do with theology, and therefore theology shouldn’t be part of the discussion.

    Unfortunately, though, talking about the relevance, or lack thereof, of theology, is a theological issue.

    So you have, in effect, done the very same thing that you are irritated with in the rest of us.

    This has been a public service announcement from your local theological zealot. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming, already in progress…

    Echo_ohcE

  85. Laura says:

    Echo, I don’t think I was asking to divorce theology from everyday living…
    I just kinda hoped you guys could go to a different thread if you are going to have a five-day dissertation like you did on 4/21… :0)

  86. Echo_ohcE says:

    My post was slightly tongue in cheek.

  87. Laura says:

    Well, Echo, I couldn’t really tell.
    I guess I was agreeing with Albino where earlier he stated that he had seen here the most egregious thread-jacking ever on the internet. or something to that effect – I mean where did the rant on cheerleading go? hahahahaha!

    Well, on to the next thing, whatever that might be…..:0)

  88. Nycole says:

    Echo

    with your first long post way up there ^ lol, i aggree and disagree with you, Yes men are known for what they do and how strong they are and women are known for how they look. i Disagree with you about sports not being fun, Sports are plenty fun and keep us moving.

    This argument reminds me of another arugment of how Gymnastics is not a sport. The lists of comments could go all day but it will not make a difference becuase Gymnastics is a sport and cheerleading is too, and voiceing your opinion over the internet will make no differnce. If you guys feel so strongly that cheerleaders just stand in the way, Act in real life, talk to the guy in charge, and make a difference. You probaly won;t get enough followers to get cheerleaders off the sidelines becuase the people wanting to see the game are most likley testostorone filled men/boys who are voting for the lead player to prove your own manlyness. Or just wacthing your son or daughter play becuase you want to be “thats my son out there”. I know i mispell a lot of things so dont put me down for it. =P

  89. Nycole,

    I’ve tried to talk to people and get the cheerleaders out of the way…with no success. I still don’t see what they contribute to the game on the court. If they want to dance, do it during time outs, when they can be the focus. If they want to be gymnasts, go get a gold medal. In the meantime, GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THE GAME THAT I PAID TO SEE!!!!

  90. Ava Jaine says:

    im a cheerleader. This is my first year in fact. Before that i played basketball and flag football. I used to make fun of the cheerleaders along with my fellow team mates. If i were on the bench me and my crew would start chanting our school name. THe whole crowd would get into. My team mates would joke saying i should be a cheerleader but that would suck cause they need me as point guard. One day we were in the locker room when the cheeleaders walked in. They could barley talk. We laughed and made fun of them. One of them looked at me and said. “Why dont you try it! its harder than it looks!. You wouldnt last 1 day as a cheerleader!” i took it as a challange. When cheerleading try out rolled around for the next years team i signed up. my team was furious. I told them that it was only to see if i would make it. At hte first day of tryouts my two best friends (who were already cheerleaders) came and tried out with me. They taught us the cheer and the dance, It wasnt easy. They went at a fast paced. Most of the girls including my two best friends had caught on. I was terrified. My best friend jessica after tryouts came home with me and helped me. It ended up being really fun. The next tryouts they taught us chants, tumbling, and stunts. I wqas started to have alot of fun. By then most of the boys had heard about me trying out. They all said i wouldnt make it. I was a basketball player and thats all id ever be. That made me work harder. On the last day of tryout when we prformed infront of the judges I gave it my all. When the scores were posted and i saw my number i was estatic! My two best friends had made varsity and i had made JV. We all cried!! I was sooo happy. That was an emotion i didnt expect. Instead of basketball this year i did cheerleading, Practices were brutal and i worked myh butt off. Then i tried out for our compitition squad. Me and one of my best friends tried out together and made it. Thats when things got tougher. Practese were at 6:30 in the mornign till 8:15. Then practes in the afternoon from 3:15 till 5. I was wiped out everyday. We went to national championships and placed everytime. We have one more championship coming up tomarrow. It the final nationals! I have discided im sticking with cheerleading. Its a true sport. I love playing other sports but cheerleading challenges me. I love it. When people didd it, its either becasue they’re jealous or becasue they’ve never had to do it before! Its tougher than it looks. The reason it looks so easy is because we make it look that way!

  91. I’m not saying some of the routines aren’t difficult, or that you need to know both gymnastics and dance to succeed. Your story is nice, but you failed to speak to my point, in fact, you made my point. To you, chearleading is a sport, all by itself. To you, the game you are cheering for is really secondary.

    This is why the cheerleaders are getting in the way of the game people paid to see. At your competitions, people pay to see you, at the football or basketball games, PEOPLE PAY TO SEE THE FOOTBALL AND BASKETBALL.

    Do you get my point here?

  92. anonymous says:

    alright this is ridiculous young girls enjoy cheerleading and not all of the girls have the same opinion, some girls actually enjoy watching the game, and cheering their team on, and i don;t know where you come from but cheerleading for high school & nfl, nba whatever is different the older girls that cheerlead usually just like to be seductive. cheerleading is a sport by itself but when you insult little girls because they like to cheerlead that is ridiculous. and if you have a problem with cheerleaders that’s your opinion. honestly in little league which is little kids the football players love having their cheerleaders cheer for them, there’s a lot of things about cheerleading that sexist jerks like you fail to realize.

  93. OpipsKefe says:

    Heh.. I want make the best use of my spoiled fragment A joke for you peoples! What is Beethoven doing in his coffin right now? Decomposing.

  94. Jonathan S says:

    its just a filler man
    when i go to roadhouse i go to eat steak & burgers..but the breads good too
    its just a form of entertainment for some
    It is also like the band..no one goes to listen to the band, and i hate highschool footballs halftime shows as well..but thats another story, it is just another thing to add on to all the hype of football, and all of sports in general. I remember, Jim you telling me about a time you went to a killer bee’s game and it was much more than just a hocky game, but other forms of entertainment..although cheerleading for me seems boring but I guess for some..its entertaining..than again it is just based on personal opinion..

  95. keelin says:

    wow wow wow noooooooooooo 4 tha ppl who bash on cheerleaders cheerleading is tha dangerous sport out there i wood like 2 c half of u do wht we do n do it rite so bac tha hell off i mean tha haters on cheerleaders r such steroytypers like i mean not every single 1 is wht u make thum b n if they do any of tha slutty things u say they do they get kicked off of tha squad so stop being racsit 2 cheerleaders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  96. quotations says:

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    No Cheers for Cheerleading « Word to the Wise…

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